Cisgender LGB people: I see a lot of you speaking about âthe cishetsâ with some kind of bitter taste behind it but never acknowledging your own cisgender privilege and how much transphobia there is in the LGBT community and I want you to know that youâre not fooling anyone.Â
Ewwww⌠cis people using the term cishet like that is awful, why would they do that? Itâs a term for people who are both queer and trans to talk about our oppression, not for cis queers to distance themselves from their transphobia and transmisogyny.
Yeah, the reasons:
–Â
to distance themselves from their transphobia and transmisogyny.Â
– to replace the way they have talked about âthe straightsâ as a coherent group when they didnât want to consider that other people might face any kind of oppression
Pretending that âlgbtâ and âcishet; are coherent blocks that have all experiences in common is a convenient way to ignore their own transphobia, transmisogyny and cisgender privilege all while providing a tool to exclude people.Â
Vocal acephobes do this the most, accusing asexual and aromantic people of being âcishetâ, resisting any kind of solidarity with other issue groups because it would bring the lgbt community in contact with âthe cishetsâ.Â
Itâs gross and it is so obviously holding lgbt/queer movements back, keeping them trapped in debates about who is âcishetâ when they so desperately need to be building a strong wide resistance to the rise of neofascism.Â
I wanted to add:
if you create a strong enough âus vs. the evil irredeemable cishetsâ mentality
this can be used to avoid all accountability ever.Â
Donât like being confronted with your racism? Target all your racism at a cishet POC who did something homophobic once. If a POC from the lgbt community calls you out on it you can call them âdivisiveâ, you can accuse them of collaborating with the evil âcishetsâ, you can ask them why they hate gay people, etc. etc.Â
If enough white lgbt people with a similar mindset support you, you can create a culture where racism is okay as long as the target it not lgbt, and this will drive away persky lgbt POC who might talk about white privilege and other uncomfortable topics or who might at some point catch you just being plain old racist to everyone.Â
Donât wanna be confronted with your ableism? ditto.Â
That ultimately pretty much everyone was bisexual underneath; that gender itself was a big nonbinary mess; and everyone would be able to be their true bisexual, often genderqueer self after the revolution. We wouldnât have or need the gender binary anymore.Â
This was a much more natural belief at the time, because gay and lesbian and bi and ace had been thought of as essentially different genders. Because ânormalâ was two binary sexes, with two corresponding binary genders, which were attracted to each other, and would act on that attraction to make more little normal people. This was the function of society, the thing that gave women any value, the whole point of life.
From âIdentity and Ideas: Strategies for Bisexuals,â an essay by bi activist Liz Highleyman in Bisexual Politics: Theories, Queeries, and Visions (1995), which I need to quote from more extensively but not rn:
âAs the social movements of the early 1970s fell apart or lost their radical edge in the 1980s, the gay liberation movement, now known as the gay and lesbian movement, followed suit.â
This sentence puts it in a nutshell, I think. There was a really concrete shift, from radical âliberationâ from the system for everyone, to acceptance from the system for these two groups.
âThere was a growing emphasis on an identity politics model that likened gays to oppressed racial and ethnic minorities. Sexual identity was increasingly seen as an immutable characteristic without sweeping social or political ramifications. The movement became more focused on civil rights and assimilation into mainstream society.â
 It wasnât an accident, that shift away from the overlapping bi/trans/intersex politics and bi/trans/intersex paradigm*. It was extremely deliberate.
It must have seemed like an easier sell to the straight world, which I can understand. Iâm sure a lot of people thought that this strategy would benefit everyone.
But not only does it leave many of our issues completely ignored or actively erased,itâs also a model that can never work for us.
This just kind of jelled for me for the first time, reading this. Itâs much harder to see if you donât know about both models, at least for me. I tend to believe the âno no, weâre for you too!â without thinking about how and why that hasnât been working.
The civil rights/assimilation model is very rooted in the whole idea that âthe only thing thatâs different about us is which gender we love!â Itâs the weâre just like you model. It works pretty well for fitting-into-society stuff: marriage, health care, employment rights, military service, media representation. Stuff that straight people have, so they can go, âokay, I see how youâre like me, it seems unfair and terrible that you shouldnât have these things too!â
It works really fucking badly for stuff where we are not like them.
The problem is actually that it works really fucking badly for stuff where we do not fit into the gender binary.
Thatâs the specific way the system demands that we Be Like Them. It treats everything else, everything that isnât being a binary sex/gender and wanting a binary sex/gender, as a freakish and in-valid choice, and punishes us for it.
The only progress weâve really seen is that sometimes, itâs not seen as a Bad Freakish Choice to want the âwrongâ binary gender, and very occasionally, itâs not seen as a Bad Freakish Choice to be the âwrongâ binary gender.
A lot of the trans movementâs progress has come from doing the same thing the gay and lesbian movement has done: âlook at us, look how gender-normative and binary-gendered we are, look how we just want to be a normal gender and love a normal gender. Nothing threatening going on here!â
It works. Iâm not going to knock that. People use this shit because they are fucking desperate and fearing for their lives.
But it also means those of us who canât say âweâre just like normal peopleâ become ballast.
You know: the stuff you throw overboard so your hot air balloon can take off.
I think this is whatâs at the core of âace discourse,â âsga discourse,â and all those other gatekeeping arguments.Â
The system only, conditionally, grudgingly, gives certain rights, in some places, to the minority of us who have convincingly argued that weâre Just Like Them. It is exceedingly clear to those people that mixing with non-approved groups puts not only those limited civil rights, but also the entire model used to win them, in danger.Â
Itâs a choice. We all face it. If you identify more with the need for all those normal rights â or with the oppressions around being, or being into, into the wrong binary gender â or you just see that this model is working for some people and you want it to work for you â then youâre likely to cast your lot with the binary-gender-based âgay rightsâ model, which means youâre likely to take a âgatekeepingâ tack.Â
If you identify more with the need for total freedom from the rules of the binary gender system, for whatever reason â and youâre not put off by the fact that we donât have a working political model around that â then youâre likely to cast your lot with the âgay liberationâ model, which means youâre likely to take the âradical inclusionâ tack thatâs inherent to that model.Â
* (I donât think there was an intersex movement at the time; intersex people are still incredibly silenced by not only the media but actively, intentionally, by the entire medical industry. But it is an explicitly intersex-friendly and very ace/aro-friendly model, in a way that the existing model has definitely not been.)
This. This right here is so fucking important to me. As an intersex, aromantic, bisexual, genderqueer personâŚ.I feel this keenly.
Its why Iâve felt so disconnected from the community that calls itself âLGBT.â Its why Iâve felt exceedingly more comfortable with the communities that receive backlash from the LGBT – the mogai and queer communities.
The entire model, the obsession, the focus of the LGBT on just âhomophobia and transphobia,â or âSGA and trans people,â is only âhistoricalâ up to a point. The rejection of the word âqueerâ and the rejection of calling our community âthe queer communityâ (and any other similarly accepting, non strictly defined community labels) goes hand in hand in all of this.
Its a clear and purposeful prioritization of community members who are binary; of members who are exactly everything I am not.
And to further the evidence that its entirely political, its pretty much entirely western. Every single existing friend I have in the community from other countries express some sort of bafflement at the behavior and treatment of us âless acceptableâ members. They get confused when we talk about a-specs or bisexuals not being accepted, because thatâs only an issue over here, with the âacceptableâ members who have decided we donât benefit their movement.
But I am so thankful for someone else pointing this out and showing evidence because I am not the best with words, but its something I actively experience and have had to deal with, without the proper knowledge and words to protest my treatment completely.
The current model the LGBT uses is complete and utter bullshit. Its a community the professes to care equally about all of us – but has no problem using methods and tactics that throw us under the bus, because they work for some of them.
If a community is going to have solidarity, then the methods that prioritize certain members while hurting others needs to be condemned. No amount of success for the few justifies harming the other members, lest you give up the pretense of being equally supportive of everyone.
Which is also why I think the mogai and queer communities have gotten under such heavy fire. Its what we specifically get targeted for – we equally support all members, which is seen as unacceptable. We use a completely different model – the rejection of the binary completely, anti assimilation, which undermines everything theyâre trying for. We donât shirk from embracing and displaying our blatant rebellion and differences from a pericisheteronormative society, which effectively ruins the chances of gold star gays getting the community seen as âjust like one of them.â
Its why thereâs been such disgust displayed at the idea of being associated with âweird, special snowflakeâ genders, its why the attraction TO those genders has been so heavily scrutinized and invalidated. Its why âmogaiâ can be thrown around like an insult, its why we get mocked as âradikweers.â Laughing at those of us that dare to fully abandon the binary, pushing us to the fringes of the community and denying us voices, words, resources, and acknowledgement, and actively denying our existence and validity this way is a frantic attempt to save that model that prioritizes them; and they believe doing so will put them in a better, more acceptable light with the rest of society that treats us the same.
Its why respectability politics has become just as much of a danger to me as pericisheteronormativity is.
And this gives me words to express how I feel about it all. âAnti gay rights, pro gay liberation.â
I got someone harassing me on messenger trying to tell me that the community has ALWAYS BEEN LGBT ever since Stonewall and that Martha P Johnson was the trans woman who started it all
First off, it was Marsha P Johnson.
Secondly, despite the fact that Marsha was the one to start the fight, despite the fact that trans people have been fighting since day one, the trans community was not considered a part of the movement until the 90âs. Many people in The Gay Rights Movement said similar things about trans people as they do now about cisace people: âthey donât experience same sex attraction, therefore they donât belong!â
It is NOT trans erasure to acknowledge that our efforts within the community werenât properly recognized, and that we werenât given a letter in the community until relatively recently. It is being aware of our history, our past. It is knowing how the sins of our past are repeating themselves with a new target.
Also this person intentionally misgendered me so they can fuck right the hell off.
maybe itâs just me, but it seems a bit transphobic to brush the issues the trans community has had in being fully acknowledged as part of the community under the rug.Â
itâs basically denying the lateral aggression the trans community has had to deal with (and still does somewhat since we still have movements to drop the T come up every now and then and some other stuff as well) as well as erasing the efforts the trans community to be acknowledged. if they can tell us we canât talk about it because itâs bad then they can eventually pretend it never happened which can further their whole lie that âright from the beginning itâs been one big happy family fighting against homophobia and transphobia.â
Reminder that Stonewall was where trans women gathered because they werenât welcome in gay establishments of the time
violence committed by cis LGB people against trans people isn’t lateral aggression though. cis and trans people aren’t ever, ever on equal footing so ‘lateral violence’ is a wildly misinformed phrase here
calling acephobia âheterophobiaâ is akin to calling transmisogyny âmisandryâ.Â
as aces are rejected by cisheteropatriarchy and therefore incapable of straight privilege, just as trans women are incapable of âmaleâ privilege.
tell your friends.Â
please shut the fuck up
please shut the fuck up
please shut the fuck up
please shut the fuck up
i love the number of people tagging this to go off about how courteousmingler, an allo trans woman, is fucked up for somehow obliviously minimizing the oppression that trans people face
exclusionists will give lip service to this stuff all day long but whenever a trans woman says that she sees a lot of similarities between her own experiences and those of the ace community, or between what TERFs say about her and what exclusionists say about aces, suddenly itâs silenceâ-the-trans-woman day again
Ya know, because those nasty hatekeepers want to keep other specific groups from getting their own needed spaces to talk about their own specific issues and to talk with each other about issues that we all have in common. Like being hated on by the Straight TM crowd for not being straight enough for their tastes.
Because hatekeepers readily play into the hands of the Straight TM crowd and divide the community and dissolve power instead of collecting it. Nothing nicer for the Straight TM crowd than marginalized groups tearing each other apart, is there?
Because those nasty hatekeepers think only their problems count, that they are the only real victims. That Bi people are âfake gayâ and âjust straightâ or âgreedyâ. That trans women are predators. That trans men are only confused women. That non binary people are fake. That intersex does not exist, even when it is scientifically proven. That pan and poly is greedy/bi/not real/cheaters/whatever. That aspec is only a modifier/are all straight/nonsense/not real/not hated on.
And to top it off, most if not all hatekeepers are also racist and sexist. They follow the white coloniser view of gender and sex. Â The view of conquerers and killers who destroyed indigenous cultures who dared to not have the same narrow, hatefull view of sex, gender, women and family.
REGs also want to call themselves feminists but readily speak over, and abuse women who oppose their view, especially WoC.
REGs are also ableist often enough.
And you are showing it off perfectly.
LG community
also, thereâs a difference between wanting an exclusive lesbian space or gay space (which is totally fine), and believing that bi people are âbasically straightâ or that asexuality isnât really a sexual orientation. Wanting to have spaces where gay men and lesbians can talk about specific issues that affect them, just like wanting to have spaces where bi and/or pan people can talk about their issues, or spaces where ace people can talk about their issues, is way different from telling people of another group that their issues arenât valid, or that they might as well be straight, or that their identity doesnât/shouldnât exist. Most inclusionists are in favor of having spaces within LGBTQIAPN+ communities that are exclusive to people of certain demographics, such as trans people, or bi people, or gay people. The difference is when people tell others that their sexuality doesnât exist, or isnât really a sexuality, or that they might as well be straight. Thatâs going from saying âmy identity and issues are important" to saying âall these other identities and issues arenât importantâ.
WHY IS GATEKEEPING THE LG COMMUNITY A BAD THING? holy shit terfs can die đ
if you think forcing terfs out of online spaces is ‘toxic’, or describe it as a witchhunt, or “just tumblr going overboard again” then kindly get a million miles from me and don’t consider yourself an ally to trans women ever, thanksâ
Like do people not understand that, if nothing else, when you use TERF arguments on another group, you are strengthening TERFs?? Because when people who agree with you stumble across TERF logic, itâs going to seem reasonable and familiar to them? Itâs going to just be building on premises theyâve already accepted?
What I donât get about the âresourcesâ argument is, how exactly do asexuals waste LGBT resources if we donât need them? If being ace wonât get you kicked out of your home, you wonât need housing. If being ace wonât get you fired, you wonât need the financial backup. If being ace doesnât put you at physical risk, you wonât need the protective services that the LGBT community can muster.
If, on the other hand, being ace does cause you to deal with any of the above, then the resources arenât being âwastedâ â theyâre going toward the safety and well-being of somebody whoâs being punished for not being straight. Isnât that the point of those resources to begin with?
Iâm honestly confused how this argument even works. The only way it makes sense is if weâre walking up to a community that we have zero need of, and theyâre just going âokey-dokey! 8Dâ and handing us shit we clearly donât need. Is that what yâall are trying to say? Iâm honestly curious.
the more I see this contradiction, the more it bothers me. I constantly see BOTH âaces dont get kicked out of their homes!! ace people dont get murdered!!!â and âcishet aces/aros are stealing resources made by and for LGBT people!!!â
Which is it? How are they taking these resources if they donât need them? cishet aces/aros arenât getting kicked out of their homes but theyre also taking up LGBT shelters?
The only thing I can think of that would include âaces take resourcesâ and âaces donât get kicked out of homes/fired/raped/abused for being aceâ is information resources, and that doesnât make sense either. How is it bad to have a greater understanding of human sexuality?
like, if a confused young person has questions about their sexuality, they are going to go to an LGBT group (no matter what itâs called) and ask questions. At that point, they are Questioning. How would it help anybody if the young person asks about not really feeling attraction? to anyone? I guess? and then told that theyâre basically straight, go away you are taking up resources! LikeâŚ
and again (i know itâs not the case all the time), remember how many tr*scum were pre-everything trans guys who were scared of not being able to transition due to medical gatekeeping and the fear of being compared to non-dysphoric nb people? iâm seeing such a parallel between young lgbt folk who are scared of not having resources they need and lash out at others.Â
understanding where it can come from isnât condoning it, but it can provide understanding.Â
and me? iâm co-president of a university pride group next fall, and if The Cishet Aros/Aces want to help me pass out flyers for drag-o-ween and rainbow prom and shit, so i donât have to do so much work by myself, i welcome them and iâm totally down to talk about asexuality and aromanticism during meetings alongside all our other discussions and activism. we might even do something for ace awareness week like we have the last couple years! we might even have someone write an extra coming out monologue about figuring out theyâre aro/ace or coming out to family! thatâd be cool, i actually did that a couple years ago and so did one of my good friends.Â
and of course if theyâre talking about how disgusting gay sex is, weâre probably gonna have a talk about things that are appropriate and not appropriate to say in pride, because that one definitely isnât. but if someone says something about sex (or romance!) being a universal need weâre also gonna talk about how thatâs not cool to say and most definitely hurts people.Â
itâs almost like weâre going to recognize that people have different needs, experiences, and privileges, and then try to account for those and support people! wow!
i know people have different definitions of the word but to me, thatâs kind of what a community is.Â
tbh Iâm not a big fan of the idea of âif you hold on long enough, discoursers will get bored and move onto another victimâ. I donât want there to be another victim. why is ace discourse like this.
actually i wanna add on bc as an intersex person this especially troubles me. you can already see exclusionists talking about how âintersex ppl arent inherently lgbtâ and although theres no real main âintersex discourseâ yet, were just collateral right now, its still really scary because its indicative of what could very easily come next. and the fact that intersex ppl already have so little representation in the public conscious, even less than aces, means that if such a discourse does come to pass it could easily damage our progress. i wonder if exclusionists realize that.
they think they can do whatever they want because âyoure not oppressedâ and then their gross opinions damage the movement to gain visibility of our oppressions and fight back against them. what happens if theres someday an intersex discourse and people hear about it, specifically other lgbtq+ people, and the belief that we dont belong makes rounds in our community? other lgbtq+ people hear this info coming from other lgbtq+ people and they believe it because its coming from our own mouths. itll spread to pericistraight people too, and well just be at an even larger loss, because then itll continue to be the accepted belief that its okay to hurt intersex people for being intersex, its okay to want us gone, and things will get worse for us. lord knows exclusionary veliefs are already making things worse for aces, hopefully it doesnt spread any further but i dont have much hope.
exclusionists see movements that are still gaining ground and think that because theyre not so public right now that theres nothing there. they dont think in terms of why things happen, or of the future. theyre only concerned with stepping on others to get what they want. âyoure stealing resources from us!â no, theres plenty to go around; you just want them all for yourselves.
its really sad. i didnt start identifying as m-spec until the m-spec discourse had long passed (im still not even sure i really do), so it was the ace discourse that really got me. ive always been aroace, since i was just a little kid that was how i identified, and all of a sudden a bunch of people i thought i could really trust turned against me and im told this is actually fairly common, in fact, the same thing happened just awhile ago. i thought the only hate i would be getting would be from my oppressors, but i was wrong in thinking that somewhere advertised as a safe space would be free of them. and thats horrible. i shouldnt have to be on-guard here, of all places. if i was already m-spec i would have known this, which is also a terrible realization. and now im watching as the next target is slowly being worked in⌠another one of my identities.
being intersex is one of the most important parts of my identity. so is being aroace. if intersex discourse is the next thing that comes out of this, idk if ill be able to handle it. if yall see me there its going to be the shortest discourse ever because im not gonna be doing anything but spamming the tags with âshut UP.â
aros and aces and bi people and pan people and nb ppl and intersex ppl are all inherently lgbtq+, dont kill the movement to spread awareness of our inclusion just because you prefer things to be the way they used to be, when you had all the resources that were there and we had none. i really, really dont want to have to fight to convince anyone of something so obvious after /this/.
iâm so confused by this?? are you saying compulsory heterosexuality is transphobic?
no_correlation.jpg
A) comparing trans people to terfs B) sad C) trans lesbians can also experience compulsory heterosexuality
i THINK itâs cuz someone said that comp het was a term created by terfs?
Thatâs so damn ignorant. Trans women that are lesbians can experience compulsory heterosexuality, and in fact, a lot of them do like most lesbians. Coming from me, a trans woman who is a lesbian and does, in fact, experience compulsory heterosexuality. So, this is transmisogynistic, again. Just because a term was made by shitty people doesnât mean that everyone who uses it is shitty, itâs a term with a meaning and the meaning is not about the person who made it. If we acted like that in regards to every term weâd have barely anything to use.
oh for sure, iâm just saying i think thatâs why anon said that. comp het is very useful terminology.
@mypolitics@discoursecrow@ainpost@mogai-is-bogai @hevvincourse the point is that, though its a useful concept to have the language to talk about, the term was created by a transmisoynist. create a new termÂ
talking over a trans woman? i see i see
now its my turn to use thisÂ
internalised heteronormativity. It’s a more coherent term, it doesn’t have a TERF connection, it hasn’t been used as ‘proof’ that bisexual women are wrong for IDing as bi, it’s really not difficult to use
also i swear stop fucking pulling this “you’re a transmisogynist for disagreeing with the trans women on our side of the discourse” it’s really embarrassing. you’re just closing your eyes and hoping there aren’t trans women who disagree w you